Transcript:

[0:00]

Alicia Harlov (Host): Welcome to The Humble Hoof podcast. My name is Alicia Harlov. This is a podcast for both horse owners and hoof care professionals, offering discussions into various philosophies on the health of the hoof and soundness of your horse. Please check us out on Facebook or at thehumblehoof.com.

[0:17]

Unidentified Speaker: I'm like born again with the trace minerals. I feel like running around and shaking everybody on the shoulders and going, “You have got to do this for your horse.” It's just like a miracle.

Unidentified Speaker:He's great. Whenever I have a question, I'm like, “Scott!” Now a few of them have been on the fence about ordering some Mad Barn for their horses and I'm like, “Do it—you'll be so happy if you did.”

[0:44]

Unidentified Speaker: Scott’s just the sweetest. I remember when I first came across Mad Barn and I was shocked—just sort of surprised—that I got an email back from the founder of the company. He was super genuine and generous, sending me the data and information he had. He's tip-top. I love Scott. I'm looking forward to hearing the episode.

[1:02]

Alicia Harlov: If you listened to my Nutrition and the Hoof podcast episode with Sally Hugg last year, you know that I'm pretty obsessed with diet when it comes to hoof care. I always talk to my clients about mineral balancing and looking at hay testing if possible, and trying to make sure that the diet the horse is on is going to be beneficial to the feet.

When I reached out to Mad Barn in Canada to see if they would do a podcast episode, the founder, Scott, was more than happy to chat with me about how nutrition can affect the feet. And side note: thank you so much to Mad Barn for sponsoring this episode of The Humble Hoof podcast. If you would like to try some of their products to better your horse's nutrition program, use the code “The Humble Hoof” to get 5% off your order at madbarn.com.

[2:00]

Scott Cieslar: Hi, my name is Scott Cieslar. I'm the founder and lead nutritionist with Mad Barn Inc., a nutrition company located in Ontario, Canada. To give you some background on how I ended up here—how we got to where we are today—I grew up around racehorses, around Standardbred racehorses. I actually grew up on a mixed farm, a cash cropping operation, and then my father bought a broodmare. We raised the foals and started racing them. I started working for trainers in the Standardbred industry and then, through university, studied nutrition and physiology as an undergrad, Bachelor of Science at Guelph.

During that time, I worked again in the racing industry on a breeding farm—one of the largest in Ontario at the time—and did foal watch, which was a convenient way to work 40 hours a week and still go to school full-time. I learned a lot from all the different facets of the industry and the life cycle of the horse, from foal watch all the way through racing and retirement.

[3:00]

Scott Cieslar: In my undergrad I started getting into research, looking at exercise physiology and nutrition. I had planned on doing a master's in exercise physiology and nutrition, but took a different direction and ended up studying ruminant nutrition for my master's, while doing side projects in equine nutrition and physiology—specifically looking at electrolyte balance in performance horses and endurance horses.

I've always had a keen interest in horses. Work took me away from it for a little while as I started working for a feed company after I finished my master's. From a feed company standpoint, horses aren’t a primary species—it's usually swine, dairy, beef, and poultry—so that became a larger focus for a number of years. Then I worked for suppliers of feed companies—an ingredient supplier—and it was a great opportunity because they were really focused on natural products and gut health products, which ties into how Mad Barn came to be. Gut health programs you see now are much more prevalent today than they were at the time; they were in their infancy then, changing the way we feed agricultural species.

[4:12]

Scott Cieslar: I always kept horses in my life during this period. What people call a side hustle now I was doing all along. Through my connections in the feed industry, I had access to ingredients and the ability to make mineral-vitamin mixes. I formulated my own, used them on our horses, and slowly other people started using them as well. That was the side hustle—me making mineral and vitamin mixes for people. It wasn't until I met some barefoot trimmers in Quebec who said, “You have to make this a business. We need this product and expertise in Canada.” They were big followers of Pete Ramey and introduced me to the ECIR group. Up to that point, I was very performance-horse focused, so insulin resistance and metabolic disease weren't really on my radar; since then, they’ve become a much bigger core.

After about five years with the supplier, I decided to go back and do a PhD at Guelph. I went on my own doing nutrition consulting—mainly dairy consulting—because the horse industry is not really set up for independent nutrition consulting. There are a few, but it’s difficult. I still wanted to be involved in the horse industry, so I turned the equine nutrition side into a business as well. The side hustle was taking a considerable amount of time in production and servicing clients, so we made it a legitimate business, and that's where Mad Barn was born.

[6:02]

Scott Cieslar: That was about five or six years ago that we officially became Mad Barn. Originally, I intended it to be a nutrition company—selling minerals, vitamins, and mixes—and use that to fund our research program to develop our nutrition model for horses, which is lacking compared to other species. I have some background in modeling, having worked with Dr. John K., and I was assembling a team to start turning our nutrition model into a dynamic mechanistic model, which we just don’t have in the equine nutrition world yet.

Alicia Harlov: I know you’re based in Canada, but you sell your supplements to the States. Do you ship them to any other countries?

Scott Cieslar: Right now, we're strictly Canada and the US. We're growing very rapidly, and I didn't want to lose focus and start to do things wrong. We're a very customer-centric business. We spend a lot of time interacting with our customers, communicating with them, and helping with their nutrition programs. I want to make sure we have systems to maintain that even as we grow, so we don't lose focus on the customer and what they need. Ultimately, I did this for two reasons: one, so I could pursue my interest in equine research and fund it through sales of our products; and two, to help horse owners who, when they only own one or two horses, find it hard to justify the high cost of an individual nutrition consultation or to find someone with expertise who will spend the time with them. We're trying to provide that.

[8:00]

Rose Wenberg: I'm pretty obsessed with hoof health in a nerdy, weird way—which I guess everyone listening to this is—so hello to my tribe of humans. Finding Mad Barn was really great. I'm in Canada, so it's nice to not find a great cost on a product and then have to add the shipping trying to get it from the States; the fact that it's here is a huge bonus for me.

I started getting into hoof health and nutrition with a little horse I have who had a navicular diagnosis. I fell into it in a backwards, non-intentional way. I learned to trim because I put her out in a field and my farrier couldn't make it there that often because it was far away. Looking at her foot without a shoe on all the time and noticing what a dynamic structure it is led me to do more research and to Pete Ramey’s work. That took me down the rabbit hole of nutrition. Based on research and trying to find products available to me, I started with Omneity from Mad Barn. When I was able to get hay tested, I moved to a custom blend.

I recently moved one of my horses and Scott was super sweet. I messaged him asking about hay testing—our provincial lab has a baffling list of options with no clear equine test. I sent the list to Scott and said, “Please help me—what do I need?” He got back to me and told me exactly what I needed, what tests to ask for, and gave me handy tips. I couldn't be happier with Mad Barn, and the results I've seen in both of my horses’ feet are wild. It's crazy how different it is once their diets are balanced, and Mad Barn makes it super easy when you can just send what you need and get a great product back.

[10:16]

Alicia Harlov: As a hoof care provider, I'm always looking for ways nutrition can help the feet—from frogs to sole depth to white line condition and hoof horn. I get asked a lot about iron and how we have an abundance of it in so many places. How do we approach that in feeding and supplementation? Can you comment on iron in horses’ diets?

[10:51]

Scott Cieslar: That's a big question. I could probably spend the next two hours talking about it. Iron, particularly in the metabolic horse world, is seen almost like a toxic element you don't want—yet it's essential for all life and ubiquitous. One common question I get is, “Can you make a mineral that's iron-free?” That's next to impossible without great expense and time to purify ingredients; practically, there will be iron in it.

Iron deficiency is still one of the number-one deficiencies in the human population globally, yet in the horse population we typically have an overabundance. Herbivores consume plants grown in iron-rich soils—iron is the second most abundant element in the earth—so forages often have high concentrations. Healthy horses can usually tolerate high levels of iron, but insulin-resistant and metabolic horses seem quite sensitive. The feed industry—largely due to racehorse traditions—added iron believing it would increase hemoglobin and oxygen-carrying capacity. In fact, iron deficiency in horses is so rare we barely talk about it; the idea we need to supplement iron is unfounded.

We list iron on our feed tags for regulatory reasons, and so people know the actual level when calculating copper and iron intake. There's also a lot we don't know about iron absorption in horses—it varies widely across species. Absorption can be very high from heme sources and very low from plant-based sources. Many people focus on iron in hay but forget water, which contains soluble iron that's much more bioavailable than hay-bound iron.

[14:44]

Alicia Harlov: I had a client install a water filtration system. Her horses had a lot of issues before, and their iron bloodwork was high. She thought the iron in water was much more bioavailable than in hay.

Scott Cieslar: Absolutely. It's already solubilized, so it's more readily absorbed. A lot of the iron in hay is bound—if it's phytate-bound, it won't be absorbed. The same applies to some supplements: calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, or monocalcium phosphate can contain iron, but its availability is quite low. We don't have a good handle on true bioavailability across all sources, and the horse's iron status also affects absorption—if stores are replete, absorption is reduced. Some horses seem particularly sensitive to high iron loads; there may be genetic components or simply overwhelm from high intake. We also have limited ways to eliminate excess iron from the body—tiny amounts are lost in sweat and excreta; otherwise, blood loss is the main route.

[16:30]

Alicia Harlov: Can you expand on effects of iron overload in the horse—especially what we might see in hoof health?

Scott Cieslar: It's hard to say there's a direct, proven link to specific hoof changes, but there’s correlation between high iron and insulin sensitivity issues. In people with type 2 diabetes, donating blood can improve insulin sensitivity. We know insulin-resistant horses often have hoof issues—laminitis, for instance, where a large portion is endocrinopathic. So there’s an interaction between iron, hoof health, and insulin sensitivity. Increased oxidative reactions are another concern. In any case, you want to control iron intake and at least balance it with enough copper in the diet to competitively inhibit excess iron absorption.

[18:28]

Alicia Harlov: Can you talk about balancing copper and zinc (and manganese) with iron—how they interact?

Scott Cieslar: Iron, copper, and manganese use similar absorption pathways in the gut. An overabundance of iron with relative copper deficiency exacerbates copper deficiency. Copper is also involved in iron metabolism, so insufficient copper not only causes a deficiency but also impairs iron processing. People get regimented about ratios (3:1, 4:1), but given variation in hay and lab analytics—and uncounted iron from water—I’m generally comfortable if iron:copper stays under 10:1, tightening it for laminitis or metabolic cases. Ultimately, you want the right amounts of all trace minerals—balance across the board.

[20:47]

Jen Dunbar: I've been feeding my horse Mad Barn for over eight years. A friend knew I was having problems—he had had laminitis—and suggested I stop another product and try this. He’s a real fuss pot, but he ate it right up. I moved to Newfoundland, and later he developed PPID. Scott suggested switching to AminoTrace. He looks amazing for a 25-year-old horse with Cushing’s. Where I live, I'm limited; if I can do my best with feed and supplements to make him feel better, it's worth it. The results speak for themselves—he looks fabulous.

[22:22]

Alicia Harlov: About hay testing—when clients can’t test due to changing shipments at boarding barns, how should we utilize testing, and how accurate is it?

Scott Cieslar: Many people brush off hay testing, but consider this: they put huge effort into choosing a bagged feed that’s maybe 10% of the diet, while hay is the other 90%—and they have no idea what's in it. The $40–$50 is well spent, even if done relatively frequently. If hay turns over often, we can use large databases of hay samples to get in the ballpark. Local labs often share seasonal summaries by species (legumes vs. grasses). This helps estimate trace mineral profiles and recommend supplementation. Protein and energy are tougher (more variable and maturity-driven), so we often estimate visually. New handheld NIR devices may soon allow quick barn-side checks. Our software at madbarn.com is a formulation platform for owners to enter diets; it includes a database (mostly Northeastern/ Ontario data) as a starting point if you don't have a sample.

[27:04]

Karina (“Kat”) Faiella: I’ve used AminoTrace since August 2019 and wish I’d started sooner. My mare has severe navicular changes in both fronts. Since starting AminoTrace and cutting out grain, she’s been sound barefoot and back in heavy work—barrel racing and jumping six days a week. Her topline, muscle tone, and coat have never looked better; she doesn’t fade—just shiny and glossy. I’ve saved money because AminoTrace reduces the need for multiple separate supplements. Their bulk minerals and MSM are effective with no fillers. Scott’s advice is excellent—he’ll recommend what’s best even if he doesn’t sell it.

[29:00]

Alicia Harlov: A friend has been sending supplements for testing to compare with the guaranteed analysis. What determines what you put on the guaranteed analysis, and how much room is there for error?

Scott Cieslar: Regulations vary by country and state. In general, about 15% variation from the tag is allowed. We run mixer validations to ensure consistency and that what we put in the bag matches the formulation. We aim for tighter than 15%. Some companies toll-manufacture in large premix plants; small runs can increase variation—for example, material from the end of a flush cycle ending up in one bag. That’s one reason we manufacture our own products—small-batch setups help maintain precision. Testing is important—these products aren’t inexpensive, and you should get what you pay for.

[31:54]

Mary Coborough: I'm an artist, part-time trimmer, and dressage rider. Switching diets a little over a year ago has been a miracle—no more thrush or itchy skin. One horse had chronic seedy toe her whole life (she's 22); it cleared up completely. For the horses I trim, we’ve changed diets and I’m documenting hoof growth and progress. I’ve done a lot with my horses and always been involved with nutrition, but this is simple and saves money. I was dropping $200 a month on a subscription service with little plastic containers. I’m very enthused about it.

[33:20]

Alicia Harlov: Some companies market primarily powdered supplements and say they don’t pellet because it can affect nutrient quality. Can you talk about the pelleting process?

Scott Cieslar: Often that’s more about the capital cost of pelleting than vitamins being damaged. We use a cold-pressed pellet mill because we include bacteria or yeast; above roughly 60–80°C (depending on time and steam) those can be killed. Many use steam-injected higher-temperature pellet mills, but they don’t run as hot as people think, nor for long. The animal feed industry has long stabilized vitamins for various processes (extrusion, premix). Vitamins do degrade over time—mixing speeds that vs. pure bags of vitamins—but we know the stability curves and ensure potency for at least a year on mineral-vitamin mixes.

[37:26]

Alicia Harlov: Some owners want to bake minerals into treats if their horses won’t eat them. Would baking affect vitamins?

Scott Cieslar: It depends on temperature and duration. Typical treat baking temperatures for short periods are probably fine. Vitamins often have protective coatings or stabilized forms. Homemade treats may carry slightly higher risk, but likely still acceptable.

[37:52]

Alicia Harlov: We’re coming up on the one-hour mark, and I still have more questions—especially about performance horses. People say they can’t do forage-based diets with performance horses.

Scott Cieslar: Look at endurance horses—100 miles in a day—often on a little oats, some beet pulp or oil, and a ton of forage. Any horse diet should be forage first. Then you add what’s needed. When you meet the ethological needs of the horse—eating forage most of the day—and provide the right hay and a good mineral-vitamin balance, you may need surprisingly little extra energy and protein.

[39:07]

Alicia Harlov: Could we do a part two episode soon?

Scott Cieslar: I’m up for it. You may want to publish this and see if anyone’s interested in what I have to say—but we’re doing this for you and the horse. There are easier ways to make money than selling horse minerals. We’re happy to help. Feel free to use the feed platform with your clients—set up a database, enter hay analyses, and even add products that aren’t in the library by adjusting nutrient specs. We’re continually updating and open to feedback to make it easier.

[40:30]

Alicia Harlov: It was great talking to you—thank you so much. I look forward to next time.

Scott Cieslar: Thanks, Alicia. Have a great night.

Alicia Harlov: Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for part two with Scott Cieslar. I'm slightly more hoof-obsessed than the average person, and chances are if you’re listening to a hoof care podcast, you are too—so we should probably be friends. Find me on Facebook or email me at thehumblehoof@gmail.com.